From: j...@club-internet.fr
Subject: Redhat's biggest problem: not enough idiots in the staff
Date: 1998/12/16
Message-ID: <19981216001042.8547.qmail@sidney.remcomp.fr>#1/1
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The problem with bright people, specially if they learned Unix at
university, is that they sometimes they miss obvious features who
would greatly make life easier for the guy who is not as bright as
them and in addition is learning Unix at the school of hard knocks.
One of those features is: instead of relying in the user RTFMing (that
implies a user who knows where is in the info and the tools for
looking) just put the info under the user's nose.
As a practical example let's see XDM.
Most new Linux users would prefer to be dropped directly into X
instead of the shell prompt. As a proof look at the IMHO biased and
venomous Pournelle's article about Linux. Of course X is not that
useful in normal operation of a server so people operating servers
would disagree. Of course there would be howls from nerds of the "I
am better hacker than Linus and RMS put together" variety. But boths
kinds of people are few in numbers and in addition they are supposed
to know enough for changing default run levels in seconds while the
helpless beginner will have to suffer for weeks until he discovers the
inittab.
Why RedHat (or any other distribution) isn't defaulting boot to the XDM
run level?
I think the answer is obvious: a working X is not a 100% sure thing
in Linux and it will not be until the day Linux market share is big
enough for every graphic card manufacturer having to choose between
including a driver with the card or closing shop. So not defaulting
to X is the sensible thing.
Really? The LILO boot screen offers a whoopsing 24x80 space who could
be put to good use. For instance for telling the user how to reboot
non X or how to reboot single user with or without startup, or also
about quirks (like the 64M autodetection limit in the dark ages before
2.0.36). This way level 5 could be made the default level: the user
would know how to boot non X in case of problems.
But putting info right under the nose of the user is something every
Linux distribution developper team (not only RedHat) tends to forget
again and again and again. The smart guy syndrome.
So I suggest that next time RedHat hires people it offers positions
not only to programmers and people with university degrees in
quantitative fields, like in the past, but also to a couple of certified
idiots, preferently a couple of Microsoft Certified Idiots (by far the
best in the market). :-))) They are great as guinea pigs for
detecting those silly stumbling blocks who are keeping idiots out of
Linux ie the vast majority of humankind.
And because I have mentionned LILO, that reminds me that LILO 20
supports national keyboards but in both 5.1 and 5.2 the program
allowing to build the special keyboard file needed by LILO has been
forgotten. That means that if you are have a french keyboard and need
to pass
aha152x=0x340,11,7,1
to the kernel you have to type
qhq&(éx=àx"'à;&&;è;&
So please next time don't forget about national keyboards and LILO.
Most keyboards are not as awful as the french one but don't forget
that most people live outside the legendary "Land of the US keyboard".
--
Jean Francois Martinez
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From: tiens...@pilot.msu.edu (Aaron Tiensivu)
Subject: Re: Redhat's biggest problem: not enough idiots in the staff
Date: 1998/12/16
Message-ID: <19981215200326.O520@msu.edu>#1/1
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> Why RedHat (or any other distribution) isn't defaulting boot to the XDM
> run level?
That's just gross.
--
Which is worse, ignorance or apathy? Who knows? Who cares?
AOL doctor to new mother: You've got male!
Microsoft gives you Windows. Linux gives you the whole house.
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From: a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (Alan Cox)
Subject: Re: Redhat's biggest problem: not enough idiots in the staff
Date: 1998/12/16
Message-ID: <m0zq6Nv-0007U1C@the-village.bc.nu>#1/1
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> enough for every graphic card manufacturer having to choose between
> including a driver with the card or closing shop. So not defaulting
> to X is the sensible thing.
Unfortunately yes this is true. There is hope from some interesting
places. The frame buffer console driver covers quite a few modern cards
with a common Xserver. The KGIcon people have a straight VGA console
that works with almost anything.
Your point about putting info in Lilo is well taken, even if 'with X'
isnt the default.
> So please next time don't forget about national keyboards and LILO.
> Most keyboards are not as awful as the french one but don't forget
> that most people live outside the legendary "Land of the US keyboard".
The right place for that btw is probably bugzilla (www.developer.redhat.com)
and yes it appears to be a bug
Alan
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From: h...@transmeta.com (H. Peter Anvin)
Subject: Re: Redhat's biggest problem: not enough idiots in the staff
Date: 1998/12/16
Message-ID: <199812160130.RAA09338@cesium.transmeta.com>#1/1
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> > Why RedHat (or any other distribution) isn't defaulting boot to the XDM
> > run level?
>
> That's just gross.
Because (for a long time, at least) X was too hard to set up during
the initial install?
-hpa
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From: ds...@cogsci.ucsd.edu (David Fox)
Subject: Re: Redhat's biggest problem: not enough idiots in the staff
Date: 1998/12/16
Message-ID: <lud85kn3ui.fsf@pipeline.ucsd.edu>#1/1
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"H. Peter Anvin" <h...@transmeta.com> writes:
> > > Why RedHat (or any other distribution) isn't defaulting boot to the XDM
> > > run level?
> >
> > That's just gross.
>
> Because (for a long time, at least) X was too hard to set up during
> the initial install?
I think that if the user clearly selects a well known video card and
monitor during install it would be safe enough to default into xdm.
There should also be a checkbox to explicitly choose not to start xdm
(i.e. to start in run level 3.)
And why couldn't XDM give up after a few exits if they were close
enough together? This would reduce the danger and confusion even
more.
--
David Fox http://hci.ucsd.edu/dsf xoF divaD
UCSD HCI Lab baL ICH DSCU
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From: p...@selequa.com (Jim Meyer)
Subject: Re: Redhat's biggest problem: not enough idiots in the staff
Date: 1998/12/16
Message-ID: <367760DF.C6B0050C@selequa.com>#1/1
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David Fox wrote:
>
> "H. Peter Anvin" <h...@transmeta.com> writes:
>
> > > > Why RedHat (or any other distribution) isn't defaulting boot to the XDM
> > > > run level?
> > >
> > > That's just gross.
No, that's just the techno-bigot in you talking. Jean Francois is
absolutely correct: when some *nix can offer an out-of-the-box GUI
environment and well-supported standard business software (accounting,
word processing, and the like), that *nix is going to become a serious
and viable threat to the Windows market share...and not one day before.
> I think that if the user clearly selects a well known video card and
> monitor during install it would be safe enough to default into xdm.
> There should also be a checkbox to explicitly choose not to start xdm
> (i.e. to start in run level 3.)
One would think that plastering the screen with "HEY! HIT CTRL-ALT-F1 IF
THINGS LOOK GRIM!" combined with an easy method of troubleshooting the
problem would do it. But then, it's the latter part which is the biggest
problem, no?
> And why couldn't XDM give up after a few exits if they were close
> enough together? This would reduce the danger and confusion even
> more.
Interesting idea. Tough to put into practice, though.
--j
--
Jim Meyer
p...@selequa.com
I'd say something pithy, but I'm too pithed off.
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From: ch...@topdog.pas1.logicon.com (Chris Albertson)
Subject: Re: Redhat's biggest problem: not enough idiots in the staff
Date: 1998/12/17
Message-ID: <36794F0E.1A2EDFBB@topdog.logicon.com>#1/1
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Jim Meyer wrote:
>
> David Fox wrote:
> >
> > "H. Peter Anvin" <h...@transmeta.com> writes:
> >
> > > > > Why RedHat (or any other distribution) isn't defaulting boot to the XDM
> > > > > run level?
> > > >
> > > > That's just gross.
>
> No, that's just the techno-bigot in you talking. Jean Francois is
> absolutely correct: when some *nix can offer an out-of-the-box GUI
> environment and well-supported standard business software (accounting,
> word processing, and the like), that *nix is going to become a serious
> and viable threat to the Windows market share...and not one day before.
Have use ever unpacked an SGI workstation? This is just about the
nicest looking system I've ever seen. IMO it does just as you
say it should. Our SGI rep says he even
gets a positive reaction from die hard Macintosh users. He has
shown these boxes to graphic artists who are primarily Photoshop
on Mac uses. After an hour most of these guys would like to have
an SGI box. Only problem is the price. Our loaded up Indigo2 cost
about $25K. Most of what makes the SGI so nice is what I'd call
"fluff" but nice looking and well thought out fluff.
So, maybe what RedHat needs is to 1) Rent some idiots (You have to
rent them as they quickly become non-idiots if they hang around to
long) and 2) Force the development staff to use some _good_
non-Linux systems. They'll pick up a lot of good ideas. Maybe
renting these things too as their value goes away after a
year or so.
--
--Chris Albertson
ch...@topdog.logicon.com Voice: 626-351-0089 X127
Logicon RDA, Pasadena California Fax: 626-351-0699
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From: a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (Alan Cox)
Subject: Re: Redhat's biggest problem: not enough idiots in the staff
Date: 1998/12/17
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> Have use ever unpacked an SGI workstation? This is just about the
> nicest looking system I've ever seen. IMO it does just as you
> say it should. Our SGI rep says he even
> gets a positive reaction from die hard Macintosh users. He has
It took me 5 minutes to set up and then over a day to get the networking
configured right because the GUI tool didnt do that bit sanely
> long) and 2) Force the development staff to use some _good_
> non-Linux systems. They'll pick up a lot of good ideas. Maybe
> renting these things too as their value goes away after a
> year or so.
The thing with SGI's is you know the exact hardware configuration
because you shipped it. I'd suggest you try this. Take an SGI box, swap
the hard disk for a blank, now install it off the SGI Irix 6.3 CD set.
Remember you'll need a calculator, the manuals (on paper), a copy of
all the upgrade kits, and a day.
The PC "OS not supplied with hardware" world is unique
Alan
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