From: Felipe Contreras < felipe contreras gmail com> To: Olav Vitters < olav vitters nl>, Alan Cox < alan lxorguk ukuu org uk>, Matthew Garrett < mjg59 srcf ucam org>, "Zeeshan Ali (Khattak)" < zeeshanak gnome org>, "Jason D. Clinton" < me jasonclinton com>, Frederic Muller < fredm gnome org>, Christophe Fergeau < teuf gnome org>, Shaun McCance < shaunm gnome org>, Germán Póo-Caamaño < gpoo gnome org>, Luc Pionchon < pionchon luc gmail com>, Florian Müllner < fmuellner gnome org>, Johannes Schmid < jhs jsschmid de>, Richard Hughes < hughsient gmail com>, Maciej Marcin Piechotka < uzytkownik2 gmail com> Cc: desktop-devel-list < desktop-devel-list gnome org>, Michael Larabel < michael phoronix com> Subject: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 19:38:19 +0300 Hi, Since I have been effectively banned from desktop devel (my posts take two weeks to be "moderated"), I am sending this mail personally to people that have been active in the development. Michael Larabel has offered to host the survey in the Phoronix site, so I have been able to bring back many questions and not limit it to 10. I have incorporated all the suggestions and haven't had received any more in a while, so I think this is ready to go. I say we should launch it before the weekend, probably on Wednesday. Michael, is there anything else I need to do to help you put it on Phoronix? As usual, it's hosted here: https://gist.github.com/gists/1128166 Cheers. GNOME user survey 2011 === 01. Do you know what GNOME is? === [single choice] * Yes [skip to 03] * No === 02. Which of the following best resemble your desktop? === (click to see the image) [single choice] - Windows http://origin.arstechnica.com/images/windows7/Peek%20-%20Before.png - Mac OS X http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/firstrun/macosx103.png - GNOME 2 http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/2.28/figures/gnome-2.28.png.en - GNOME 3 http://gnome3.org/img/overview-big.png - Unity http://static.arstechnica.com/shell-windows.png - KDE http://www.linuxnov.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/KDE-4-7-desktop.jpg - I can't tell === 03. Overall, how satisfied are you with GNOME? === [single choice] * not at all * barely * halfway * mostly * completely === 04. Does GNOME do what you want? === [single choice] * not at all * barely * halfway * mostly * completely === 05. How satisfied are you with GNOME in regards to == [matrix] Columns: not at all / barely / halfway / mostly / completely + ease of use + documentation + language availability + accessibility + community === 06. How are you taking this survey? === [single choice, with other] * Completely on my own * Somebody is pushing for me to do it * I am acting on behalf of somebody else * Other === 07. How old are you? (years) === [numeric] === 08. How long have you been using GNOME? (years) === [numeric] === 09. How many years of experience do you have using computers? === [numeric] === 10. How do you compare your current GNOME version with the version from one year ago? === [single choice] * better * no changes * worse * cannot say === 11. Which GNOME version(s) are you using? === [multiple choice, with other] + 3.2 + 3.0 + 2.x + I don't know + I'm not using it currently + other, please specify === 12. Where do you run GNOME? === [multiple choice, with other] + Desktop + Laptop + Netbook + Tablet === 13. How often do you use a terminal/console? == [single choice] * What is that? * When I have no other option * I can't live without them * Is there anything else? === 14. Have you contributed to the GNOME project? === [single choice] * Yes * No === 15. Have you contacted the GNOME team? === [single choice] * Yes, successfully * Yes, unsuccessfully * No, I don't know how * No, never had the need === 16. Which other desktop environments have you used in recent years? == [multiple choice, with other] + KDE + Unity + XFCE + LXDE + Enlightenment + other (please specify) === 17. Are you using some window arrangement extension on top of GNOME? == (e.g. Compiz + plugins, Awesome TWM + GNOME, etc) [single choice, with other] * No, pure GNOME * GNOME + Compiz window arrangement plugins * I don't know * Other (please specify) === 18. If you could change three things in GNOME, what would they be? === [free form] === 19. Do you have any comments or suggestions for the GNOME team? === [free form] -- Felipe Contreras
From: Ionut Biru < ionut archlinux ro> To: desktop-devel-list gnome org Subject: Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 23:05:24 +0300 On 09/19/2011 07:38 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote: > Hi, > Since I have been effectively banned from desktop devel (my posts take > two weeks to be "moderated"), I am sending this mail personally to > people that have been active in the development. > Michael Larabel has offered to host the survey in the Phoronix site, > so I have been able to bring back many questions and not limit it to > 10. > I have incorporated all the suggestions and haven't had received any > more in a while, so I think this is ready to go. I say we should > launch it before the weekend, probably on Wednesday. > Michael, is there anything else I need to do to help you put it on Phoronix? > As usual, it's hosted here: > https://gist.github.com/gists/1128166 > Cheers. > GNOME user survey 2011 > === 03. Overall, how satisfied are you with GNOME? === > [single choice] > * not at all > * barely > * halfway > * mostly > * completely I didn't participate to this discussion before but i think the survey is pointless now because GNOME 3 wasn't presented to users at all. From the top 10 mainstream distributions, conform distrowatch, only 2 of them have gnome 3.0. In my opinion this survey should be published after gnome 3.2 is presented to a larger audience, now that ubuntu 11.10 is going to have it, opensuse 12.1 -- Ionut
From: Felipe Contreras < felipe contreras gmail com> To: Ionut Biru < ionut archlinux ro> Cc: desktop-devel-list gnome org Subject: Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 00:08:52 +0300 On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Ionut Biru < ionut archlinux ro> wrote: > I didn't participate to this discussion before but i think the survey is > pointless now because GNOME 3 wasn't presented to users at all. > > From the top 10 mainstream distributions, conform distrowatch, only 2 of > them have gnome 3.0. > > In my opinion this survey should be published after gnome 3.2 is presented > to a larger audience, now that ubuntu 11.10 is going to have it, opensuse > 12.1 That would be what? December? I think that's too far, perhaps for the 2012 survey. -- Felipe Contreras
From: Nirbheek Chauhan < nirbheek gentoo org> To: Felipe Contreras < felipe contreras gmail com> Cc: desktop-devel-list gnome org Subject: Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 03:36:52 +0530 On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 2:38 AM, Felipe Contreras < felipe contreras gmail com> wrote: > On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Ionut Biru < ionut archlinux ro> wrote: [snip] >> In my opinion this survey should be published after gnome 3.2 is presented >> to a larger audience, now that ubuntu 11.10 is going to have it, opensuse >> 12.1 > > That would be what? December? I think that's too far, perhaps for the > 2012 survey. > Why does the survey *have* to be done *right now* at all? I thought the primary aim of this survey was to give useful feedback which would be used to improve GNOME. The first step in evaluating software is to use the latest version — there's no use asking people for feedback about GNOME 3.0 when 3.2 is coming out in a week. There's been a lot of work done to improve GNOME 3 over the last 6 months. A lot of the complaints of GNOME 3.0 have been already addressed. Why not just do it after (even more!) distros ship GNOME 3.2? Cheers, -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team
From: Alan Cox < alan lxorguk ukuu org uk> To: Nirbheek Chauhan < nirbheek gentoo org> Cc: desktop-devel-list gnome org Subject: Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 23:17:37 +0100 > There's been a lot of work done to improve GNOME 3 over the last 6 > months. A lot of the complaints of GNOME 3.0 have been already > addressed. Why not just do it after (even more!) distros ship GNOME > 3.2? The first one is probably going to shed more light on what should be asked than anything else. So why not do it now ? It will also be a basis upon which you can compare a 2012 survey. Alan
From: Mark < markg85 gmail com> To: Alan Cox < alan lxorguk ukuu org uk> Cc: desktop-devel-list gnome org Subject: Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:54:12 +0200 On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 12:17 AM, Alan Cox < alan lxorguk ukuu org uk> wrote: >> There's been a lot of work done to improve GNOME 3 over the last 6 >> months. A lot of the complaints of GNOME 3.0 have been already >> addressed. Why not just do it after (even more!) distros ship GNOME >> 3.2? > The first one is probably going to shed more light on what should be > asked than anything else. So why not do it now ? It will also be a basis > upon which you can compare a 2012 survey. > Alan > _______________________________________________ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list gnome org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list FYI: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTAwMjY
From: Olav Vitters < olav vitters nl> To: desktop-devel-list gnome org Subject: Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:27:51 +0200 On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 04:54:12PM +0200, Mark wrote: > FYI: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTAwMjY Useless. -- Regards, Olav
From: Dan Williams < dcbw redhat com> To: Olav Vitters < olav vitters nl> Cc: desktop-devel-list gnome org Subject: Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:35:24 -0500 On Tue, 2011-10-18 at 17:27 +0200, Olav Vitters wrote: > On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 04:54:12PM +0200, Mark wrote: > > FYI: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTAwMjY > > Useless. Web surveys are guaranteed to self-select, and I have to imagine a survey hosted on phoronix self-selects a ton more than one on cnn.com or msn.com. Useful surveys are ones that go out and find users, instead of depending on users to find the survey. Dan
From: "Jasper St. Pierre" < jstpierre mecheye net> To: desktop-devel-list gnome org Subject: Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:02:56 -0400 It's useless to me because there's nothing actionable there. The survey results don't give us anything to do except die in a fire. -- Jasper
From: Sergey Udaltsov < sergey udaltsov gmail com> To: "Jasper St. Pierre" < jstpierre mecheye net> Cc: desktop-devel-list gnome org Subject: Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:15:37 +0100 Would anybody have time to prepare some useful survey? Provocative question: is there any way that some unbiased survey would change the emphasis of development from gnome-shell to the fallback mode? And increase the configurability and so on.. Or - the current strategy is unchangeable (unfalsifiable), regardless? Sergey On Oct 18, 2011 5:03 p.m., "Jasper St. Pierre" < jstpierre mecheye net> wrote: > It's useless to me because there's nothing actionable there. The > survey results don't give us anything to do except die in a fire. > -- > Jasper > _______________________________________________ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list gnome org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
From: Cosimo Cecchi < cosimoc gnome org> To: Sergey Udaltsov < sergey udaltsov gmail com> Cc: desktop-devel-list gnome org Subject: Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:29:31 -0400 On Tue, 2011-10-18 at 17:15 +0100, Sergey Udaltsov wrote: > Provocative question: is there any way that some unbiased survey would > change the emphasis of development from gnome-shell to the fallback > mode? And increase the configurability and so on.. Or - the current > strategy is unchangeable (unfalsifiable), regardless? How are those two things even connected? How could switching the development emphasis to work on obsolete technologies help anybody at all (users/developers/designers and so on)? Cosimo
From: Sergey Udaltsov < sergey udaltsov gmail com> To: Cosimo Cecchi < cosimoc gnome org> Cc: desktop-devel-list gnome org Subject: Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:34:16 +0100 Iirc the fallback mode is using new gtk and stuff... why is it obsolete? I was asking looking at the anger and nostalgie expressed on phoronix. On Oct 18, 2011 5:29 p.m., "Cosimo Cecchi" < cosimoc gnome org> wrote: > On Tue, 2011-10-18 at 17:15 +0100, Sergey Udaltsov wrote: >> Provocative question: is there any way that some unbiased survey would >> change the emphasis of development from gnome-shell to the fallback >> mode? And increase the configurability and so on.. Or - the current >> strategy is unchangeable (unfalsifiable), regardless? > How are those two things even connected? How could switching the > development emphasis to work on obsolete technologies help anybody at > all (users/developers/designers and so on)? > Cosimo
From: Patryk Zawadzki < patrys pld-linux org> To: Sergey Udaltsov < sergey udaltsov gmail com> Cc: desktop-devel-list gnome org Subject: Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 18:42:18 +0200 On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Sergey Udaltsov < sergey udaltsov gmail com> wrote: > Iirc the fallback mode is using new gtk and stuff... why is it obsolete? AFAIK the goal was to only maintain it until the very last graphics chip in use was able to run shell. It's not there as a preference, it's a fallback mode for unsupported hardware. > I was asking looking at the anger and nostalgie expressed on phoronix. Phoronix is a tabloid seeking sensation. They feed on flames, FUD and “scandals” so their readership is far from being average end users. It's not the crowd you can cater to as whenever you “fix” one “problem” they will quickly find a new thing to hate. -- Patryk Zawadzki I solve problems.
From: Mark < markg85 gmail com> To: Patryk Zawadzki < patrys pld-linux org> Cc: desktop-devel-list gnome org Subject: Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 01:09:18 +0200 On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 6:42 PM, Patryk Zawadzki < patrys pld-linux org> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Sergey Udaltsov << sergey udaltsov gmail com> wrote: >> Iirc the fallback mode is using new gtk and stuff... why is it obsolete? > AFAIK the goal was to only maintain it until the very last graphics > chip in use was able to run shell. It's not there as a preference, > it's a fallback mode for unsupported hardware. >> I was asking looking at the anger and nostalgie expressed on phoronix. > Phoronix is a tabloid seeking sensation. They feed on flames, FUD and > “scandals” so their readership is far from being average end users. > It's not the crowd you can cater to as whenever you “fix” one > “problem” they will quickly find a new thing to hate. > -- > Patryk Zawadzki > I solve problems. I really want to drop in here. I on purposely say "gnome" instead of "you" to avoid giving the impression that i attack anyone. Some facts. 1. Gnome wants feedback but any feedback gathered online is "non representative". It has to be gathered from a "non biased" site like cnn.com -_- guess the person who said that lives in a dream world or under a stone 2. Gnome gets feedback on _gnome's_own_list_of_questions_ but it's "non representative" ... 3. It's "useless" 4. Feedback should be looked for just by asking people, not on internet. Really, is gnome KIDDING me? How unrealistic can gnome be! And if phoronix isn't a site for user feedback then what is? For who is Gnome even targeted? Linux distributions with Desktop Environments are installed by (usually) the more technical people, the same people who infact _do_ visit phoronix simply because it's the only and thus biggest linux news site out there. Phoronix and any linux news orientated site would be _perfect_ for a Gnome survey! If gnome thinks otherwise then keep on living in that little perfect utopia world of gnome. Reality is way different. Gnome really seems to be living in some ideal small "everyone loves gnome" world where they can tap in sites with millions of unbiased users that all give unbiased objective feedback.. Wake up gnome, not gonna happen! Asking unbiased thus people that have never been using gnome is asking first impressions. Not something you would want in your feedback. You would want feedback of users that have been using gnome for a (long) while and are thus able to give real constructive feedback. Exactly the kind of people that visit phoronix and thus a perfect site for asking feedback. What i think is really going on here is that gnome sees the feedback and doesn't like it. Gnome would obviously like to see feedback like "Ohh, good job gnome! btw, gnome shell really rocks!" ... Apparently the vast majority of gnome users (and you can leave ubuntu out since it has it's own interface thus it's own gnome experience) simply don't like what gnome did with the move to Gnome Shell. The people gnome targets don't like gnome anymore and switch to KDE and XFCE. And those are facts! Then we have the settings. Gnome threats people like they are stupid and takes away as much options as possible. Another fact is that most linux users _like_ to have more options so gnome is very much acting like "i know all, you are stupid. Take it or leave it" and isn't listening to it's users _at_all_ Just face it. More options instead of less are wanted by the majority of gnome's user base for years. And what does gnome do as another stubborn move? ... take more options out ... Gnome did the wrong thing by introducing Gnome Shell. It was known way before it was released but gnome was, yet again, extremely stubborn and ignorant to the opinion of the users. Gnome just doesn't listen and that is gonna bite gnome at some point in time. Advanced users just don't like gnome anymore. There might be a few exceptions like for example gnome's own developers ;) So, gnome, please just take this message. Do something about your attitude and listen to your own users! Be friendly towards them, help them and give them a good experience. That does also mean to drop shell in my opinion (and come up with something better). I really do wonder how much people are using gnome (shell, unity and "fallback") now.. I think it's user base declined rapidly with the gnome 3.0 release. XFCE an KDE probably saw usage increases around the same time. I wish there where numbers on that somewhere. Don't take this message the wrong way. I post it with good intentions and for gnome to take it and learn from it. I'm just being fair, open and stating facts. Kind regards, Mark
From: Alan Cox < alan lxorguk ukuu org uk> To: Mark < markg85 gmail com> Cc: desktop-devel-list gnome org Subject: Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 00:21:21 +0100 > AFAIK the goal was to only maintain it until the very last graphics > chip in use was able to run shell. It's not there as a preference, > it's a fallback mode for unsupported hardware. Plenty of people see it as a preference, but right now on the hardware side there are plenty of chipsets without 3D support or where it's not good enough for Gnome 3. As a starter in recent/currently available chipsets you can add - Some Intel gen chipsets with > 2048 pixel wide displays - All the USB plug in displays - Imagination based hardware and I'm sure there are plenty more. They don't I suspect need fallback mode though, all of the examples I can think of that are current have very fast framebuffer access for pushing bits, usually host memory based (the USB one update is slower but not the draw rates). E/EVAS manages to do pretty much everything Gnome 3 non fallback does effectwise on such chipsets snappily (often faster than Gnome 3 feels on hardware 3D), so really it ought to be a case for the most part of fixing the broke dependancies of Gnome 3 on 3D hardware. You can do drop shadows, shading, scaling of a flat 2D image and the like very fast with the CPU. I do wonder if Gnome 3 had been based on the E canvas whether any of the problem would have occurred in the first place ? Alan
From: Shaun McCance < shaunm gnome org> To: Mark < markg85 gmail com> Cc: desktop-devel-list gnome org Subject: Re: GNOME user survey 2011 (v6) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 19:58:55 -0400 On Wed, 2011-10-19 at 01:09 +0200, Mark wrote: > I really want to drop in here. > I on purposely say "gnome" instead of "you" to avoid giving the > impression that i attack anyone. Honestly, given your hostile tone, it instead comes off as if you're attacking everybody. I'm going to try to assume you're frustrated, and that you don't mean to offend. > Some facts. > 1. Gnome wants feedback but any feedback gathered online is "non > representative". It has to be gathered from a "non biased" site like > cnn.com -_- guess the person who said that lives in a dream world or > under a stone My objections to the survey are well-documented on this list. I clearly stated multiple times that an open-invite internet survey of any kind cannot control its sampling or control for selection bias in any way. The person who mentioned CNN didn't say that a survey on cnn.com would be scientific. He said *all* web surveys self-select, and that phoronix self-selects moreso. This is simply a product of who reads the sites, and who you want to reach. Most of the people who create GNOME are professional developers, or are working towards becoming professionals. Perhaps surveys ought to be run by professional statisticians, or quantitative social science professionals. And among the many reasons why this survey is clearly biased and poorly run, let's not forget that cherry-picking negative (and overtly hostile) comments before the data is even published is about the least professional thing I've ever seen in a survey. > 2. Gnome gets feedback on _gnome's_own_list_of_questions_ but it's > "non representative" ... The majority of GNOME developers did not participate in creating these questions. Of those that did, most were not supportive of the survey as deployed. To characterize it as "GNOME's own list of questions" is extremely disingenuous. > 3. It's "useless" > 4. Feedback should be looked for just by asking people, not on > internet. > Really, is gnome KIDDING me? How unrealistic can gnome be! And if > phoronix isn't a site for user feedback then what is? For who is Gnome > even targeted? I'm sure if you ask a dozen different GNOME developers, you'll get some different answers. But mostly, I think GNOME targets people who don't want to think about what terms like "operating system", "desktop environment", or "distribution" mean. Many technology enthusiasts enjoy GNOME. In fact, those of us who create GNOME are technology enthusiasts. But we set the bar higher than our own tolerance for technology pain. -- Shaun