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From: Dale Pontius <NeOdSgPeAhMp@together.net>
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Subject: First impressions - USER report
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I know GNOME is still in development phase, and I'm not a developer
(partly
condition of employment, partly time, etc...) But I'm interested, and
you
really don't want to get toooo far before hearing some user feedback, do
you?
One of the worst things that happens at work is when developers gather
"reqirements", go off and program for a year, and suddenly give us
something
that is nothing like what we wanted.
So I'm use both Linux and OS/2, and am hoping to see GNOME bring the
Linux
UI up to something like the usability of the WPS.
I picked up the RPMs last Thursday night and installed them.
First off, I know GNOME doesn't force a window manager, but it sure
would
be nice if there were a 'suggested' one, perhaps preconfigured to work
with
it. I'm presuming an evolution of either scwm or Enlightenment would fit
in
here, though I've also seen mention of icewm. I used icewm under RH4.2,
but
have stayed with the default under RH5, so far.
Second, any idea when I won't have to choose between GNOME and GIMP? I
don't
really need GIMP, but I'm not fond of having part of my system broken,
and I
don't know how it will affect any other gtk stuff I may find.
Third, I wish for a tree view, also. In another discussion thread,
someone
mentioned that the WPS wasn't good for heavy-duty file management. But
that's
also a developer's point of view, not a users. I agree that the WPS
isn't
good for heavy-duty use, but it's VERY good at light-duty file
management.
(better/faster/simpler for simple jobs than GMC)
Fourth, things seem a tad slow. I hope this is because of debug code and
not
because of the basic CORBA approach. Perhaps MICO needs some tuning?
Dale Pontius
From tromey@creche.cygnus.com
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To: Dale Pontius <NeOdSgPeAhMp@together.net>
Cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: First impressions - USER report
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X-Zippy: I don't know WHY I said that.. I think it came from the FILLINGS
in my rear molars..
X-Attribution: Tom
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Dale> First off, I know GNOME doesn't force a window manager, but it
Dale> sure would be nice if there were a 'suggested' one, perhaps
Dale> preconfigured to work with it.
I agree. This is already on the to-do list.
Dale> Fourth, things seem a tad slow. I hope this is because of debug
Dale> code and not because of the basic CORBA approach. Perhaps MICO
Dale> needs some tuning?
Can you be more specific about what is slow?
Right now CORBA is only used by the panel applets. If something else
seems slow, then it is not MICO's fault.
We are getting rid of MICO in the future anyway.
Tom
From jirka@5z.com
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 17:33:32 -0700
From: George <jirka@5z.com>
To: GNOME Malinglist <gnome-list@gnome.org>
Subject: Re: First impressions - USER report
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Quoting Tom Tromey (tromey@cygnus.com):
> Dale> First off, I know GNOME doesn't force a window manager, but it
> Dale> sure would be nice if there were a 'suggested' one, perhaps
> Dale> preconfigured to work with it.
>
> I agree. This is already on the to-do list.
I think we'll end up suggesting icewm, as it seems it will implement nice
hints which canbe used to make the panel and other apps work saner ... and
I remember something about somebody wanting to put SM into icewm
though I would prefer fvwm2 to have these ... I think icewm will have them
sooner ...
George
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
George Lebl <jirka@5z.com> http://www.5z.com/jirka/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following implements RSA in perl and is illegal to export from the US:
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
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From sopwith@redhat.com
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Sun, 10 May 1998 23:04:23 -0400
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:04:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Elliot Lee <sopwith@redhat.com>
Reply-To: Elliot Lee <sopwith@redhat.com>
To: George <jirka@5z.com>
cc: GNOME Malinglist <gnome-list@gnome.org>
Subject: Re: First impressions - USER report
In-Reply-To: <19980510173332.58273@julia.5z.com>
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On Sun, 10 May 1998, George wrote:
> I think we'll end up suggesting icewm
"Suggesting" will be taken as "we only really need to make the effort to
make it work with icewm" instead of doing the patches for other window
managers.
There was a reason one of the original GNOME goals was wm independance.
It's because we need to give people the choice :-) I noticed someone else
just posted saying they would like the hints for WindowMaker. Is there
anything else you would like to know to convince you that
total wm-independance is good? :)
> as it seems it will implement nice hints
So will other window managers, and probably before icewm.
I personally don't like icewm, so please, I don't want people shoving it
down my throat in order to get full GNOME functionality. :)
When window managers come out with support for hints that are needed by
GNOME apps, we *will* need a page listing GNOME-compliant window managers.
Just not one preferred one :)
-- Elliot
When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather...
...not yelling and screaming like the people in the back of the
plane he was flying.
From dirk@luedi.oche.de
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:07:00 +0200 (CEST)
From: Dirk Luetjens <dirk@luedi.oche.de>
To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: recently on the WindowMaker list
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980430190534.423A-100000@server.wg.net>
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Hi,
this came up on the windowmaker list last weekend. It was a thread about
the gnome aware windowmanager. Perhaps someone with deeper knowledge can
answer this.
It is up to you what you think about the tone of the posting...
Dirk
P.S.: Sorry for sending twice, but I couldn't find the first version in
the list
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:29:13 +1000
From: Matthew Hawkins <matt@mail.goldweb.com.au>
To: wmaker@eosys.com
Subject: Re: [WM] Where is WM vs Gnome?
At 02:33AM on Sun, Apr 26, 1998, Martin Baehr <mbaehr@email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at> sent:
> the gnome faq says gnome will require several services from the
> windowmanager, unfortunaltely they don't say what services those are...
> is there anybody on one of the gnome lists and can give us
> the answer to this?
We're all interested in making WindowMaker and GNOME interact, however
you've hit your head on the nail with this comment above. I've asked Miguel
and other GNOME developers that I see (well, virtually anyway) just about
every day exactly what GNOME wants from the window manager, and got no
reply. The best answer I have gotten in the past - 6? perhaps more - months
is to check the GNOME web pages, and they still show exactly the same
information, that is, nothing. I even tried reading the GNOME mailing lists
via the web to see if anything had been posted, but they simply reciprocated
the web page.
So I'm of the opinion now that if the GNOME people want WindowMaker to
cooperate with their desktop environment, they can come to us. We have
better things to do than waste time on wild goose chases for information
that doesn't exist. I believe we're not the first free software project to
get the cold shoulder from the GNOME developers, and probably won't be the
last. So they can stick it for all I care right now, they can have their
bloat-swap-crash Enlightenment and bloat-swap-thrash gtk+, and we'll have
our lean, mean WindowMaker machine ;P
--
Matthew Hawkins <matt@goldweb.com.au> | "We all know Linux is great...it
WWW: http://www.goldweb.com.au/~matt/ | does infinite loops in 5 seconds."
UID 0 @ Goldweb Internet +61262530059 | -- Linus Torvalds
PGP: 1024/273E35E1 - 01 8D 6C 62 4C D1 05 3D 0F 59 5B E3 81 9F 59 B9
---------- End Forwarded message ----------
Dirk
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
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Mon, 11 May 1998 14:33:45 -0500
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:33:45 -0500
Message-Id: <199805111933.OAA00244@athena.nuclecu.unam.mx>
From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: dirk@luedi.oche.de
CC: gnome-list@gnome.org, matt@mail.goldweb.com.au, wmaker@eosys.com
In-reply-to: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980430190534.423A-100000@server.wg.net> (message
from Dirk Luetjens on Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:07:00 +0200 (CEST))
Subject: Re: recently on the WindowMaker list
X-Windows: You'll envy the dead.
> I've asked Miguel and other GNOME developers that I see (well,
> virtually anyway) just about every day exactly what GNOME wants from
> the window manager, and got no reply.
I can not remember you asking me this on a daily basis. I do not
remember this being the case.
And yes, people have approached me asking what needs to be done for
the window manager to cooperate with gnome, and the answer is: I do
not know what do we need yet, but some window manager maintainers have
been discussing this on gnome-list.
The best way to make this progress is to join our list and help out in
the discussion: the wm maintainers are the people who know better this
business.
Miguel.;
From edgehp+dale@together.net
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:38:01 +0000
From: Dale Pontius <NeOdSgPeAhMp@together.net>
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Subject: Re: First impressions - USER report
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Elliot Lee wrote:
>
> On Sun, 10 May 1998, George wrote:
>
> > I think we'll end up suggesting icewm
>
> "Suggesting" will be taken as "we only really need to make the effort to
> make it work with icewm" instead of doing the patches for other window
> managers.
> I personally don't like icewm, so please, I don't want people shoving it
> down my throat in order to get full GNOME functionality. :)
>
As the originator, I was not in any way after a STANDARD WM. I just
wanted
a suggested WM. Even a list would have been an acceptable answer. I'm
still
using AnotherLevel. I don't particularly like it, but it works and I
haven't
felt like the work of tuning up another, when I'll be grabbing the first
GNOME-ified one that's acceptable.
Dale Pontius
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:44:23 +0000
From: Dale Pontius <NeOdSgPeAhMp@together.net>
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To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: First impressions - USER report
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Tom Tromey wrote:
>
> Can you be more specific about what is slow?
>
> Right now CORBA is only used by the panel applets. If something else
> seems slow, then it is not MICO's fault.
>
Startup of the panel applets. They were OK once started, but
initially...
Speaking of startup, so far I've just been invoking 'panel' from a
command prompt. Is there a better way I should be doing things - for
instance invoking something other than 'panel'? I have yet to RTFM,
so I can't gripe too hard about this one.
For some more trivial ones, how do you delete something from the
panel, or make it save its settings, or add something besides one
of the supplied menus/applets? RTFM is an acceptable answer, but at
some point this stuff ought to be immediately and visually intuitive,
if possible. While reading manuals is ok, and not to be avoided on
general principle, there should also be no principle forcing manuals
to be read when it's not necessary.
Dale Pontius
From sopwith@redhat.com
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Mon, 11 May 1998 18:52:42 -0400
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:52:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Elliot Lee <sopwith@redhat.com>
To: Dale Pontius <NeOdSgPeAhMp@together.net>
cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: First impressions - USER report
In-Reply-To: <35577DC9.259DF4F@together.net>
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On Mon, 11 May 1998, Dale Pontius wrote:
> As the originator, I was not in any way after a STANDARD WM. I just
> wanted a suggested WM. Even a list would have been an acceptable answer.
OK, thanks for clarifying.
A list of GNOME-compliant window managers will be available at some point
in the future - if someone wants to test existing window managers for
Motif hint support (which presently constitutes the entirety of the wm
compliance requirements :) we can get it up on the web site pronto.
-- Elliot
When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather...
...not yelling and screaming like the people in the back of the
plane he was flying.
From tromey@creche.cygnus.com
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To: Dale Pontius <NeOdSgPeAhMp@together.net>
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Subject: Re: First impressions - USER report
References: <35563CFD.4D44203A@together.net> <m1pvhlzkhc.fsf@creche.cygnus.com>
<35577F47.63A40482@together.net>
X-Zippy: I want to kill everyone here with a cute colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!
X-Attribution: Tom
BCC:
Reply-To: tromey@cygnus.com
From: Tom Tromey <tromey@cygnus.com>
Date: 11 May 1998 16:52:26 -0600
In-Reply-To: Dale Pontius's message of Mon, 11 May 1998 22:44:23 +0000
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Dale> Speaking of startup, so far I've just been invoking 'panel' from
Dale> a command prompt. Is there a better way I should be doing things
Dale> - for instance invoking something other than 'panel'? I have yet
Dale> to RTFM, so I can't gripe too hard about this one.
Mark Galassi's documentation covers this.
The short answer: eventually "gnome-session" will do this.
Dale> For some more trivial ones, how do you delete something from the
Dale> panel, or make it save its settings, or add something besides
Dale> one of the supplied menus/applets? RTFM is an acceptable answer,
Dale> but at some point this stuff ought to be immediately and
Dale> visually intuitive, if possible. While reading manuals is ok,
Dale> and not to be avoided on general principle, there should also be
Dale> no principle forcing manuals to be read when it's not necessary.
Use B3 on the mouse to bring up a menu for any panel applet. I found
this intuitive. Why didn't you?
The panel automatically saves its state. You shouldn't have to do
anything.
Of course, you'll always have to read a manual to figure out how to
start things. But hopefully system integrators will set everything up
so that most users won't have to do this.
Tom
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To: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
Cc: dirk@luedi.oche.de, gnome-list@gnome.org, matt@mail.goldweb.com.au,
wmaker@eosys.com
Subject: Re: recently on the WindowMaker list
References: <199805111933.OAA00244@athena.nuclecu.unam.mx>
X-Zippy: Where's SANDY DUNCAN?
X-Attribution: Tom
BCC:
Reply-To: tromey@cygnus.com
From: Tom Tromey <tromey@cygnus.com>
Date: 11 May 1998 16:57:34 -0600
In-Reply-To: Miguel de Icaza's message of Mon, 11 May 1998 14:33:45 -0500
Message-ID: <m11zu0ct5t.fsf@creche.cygnus.com>
Lines: 29
X-Mailer: Red Gnus v0.34/Emacs 19.34
>> I've asked Miguel and other GNOME developers that I see (well,
>> virtually anyway) just about every day exactly what GNOME wants
>> from the window manager, and got no reply.
Miguel> I can not remember you asking me this on a daily basis. I do
Miguel> not remember this being the case.
I don't remember ever seeing any message about making WindowMaker work
with Gnome. Whatever.
Miguel> And yes, people have approached me asking what needs to be
Miguel> done for the window manager to cooperate with gnome, and the
Miguel> answer is: I do not know what do we need yet, but some window
Miguel> manager maintainers have been discussing this on gnome-list.
I do know one thing that is required: a Gnome window manager should be
a client of the session manager, using the X Session Management
Protocol. The docs for this protocol are available on ftp.x.org.
I'm also happy to answer any questions wm implementors might have
about the protocol or its use. I'm interested in getting as many wms
as possible to do this correctly.
It is quite easy to add client support to most programs. Having the
client support in a program doesn't add any noticeable overhead when
no session manager is running.
Tom
From tromey@creche.cygnus.com
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To: Elliot Lee <sopwith@redhat.com>
Cc: Dale Pontius <NeOdSgPeAhMp@together.net>, gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: First impressions - USER report
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980511185024.17072C-100000@lacrosse.redhat.com>
X-Zippy: NATHAN... your PARENTS were in a CARCRASH!!
They're VOIDED - They COLLAPSED
They had no CHAINSAWS... They had no MONEY MACHINES...
They did PILLS in SKIMPY GRASS SKIRTS...
Nathan, I EMULATED them... but they were OFF-KEY...
X-Attribution: Tom
BCC:
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From: Tom Tromey <tromey@cygnus.com>
Date: 11 May 1998 17:02:12 -0600
In-Reply-To: Elliot Lee's message of Mon, 11 May 1998 18:52:42 -0400 (EDT)
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Elliot> if someone wants to test existing window managers for Motif
Elliot> hint support (which presently constitutes the entirety of the
Elliot> wm compliance requirements :)
This isn't quite true. A Gnome window manager must also be a client
of the session manager. Luckily, this is easy to do.
Tom
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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:57:48 -0700
From: George <jirka@5z.com>
To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: First impressions - USER report
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In-Reply-To: <35577F47.63A40482@together.net>; from Dale Pontius on Mon,
May 11, 1998 at 10:44:23PM +0000
> > Can you be more specific about what is slow?
> >
> > Right now CORBA is only used by the panel applets. If something else
> > seems slow, then it is not MICO's fault.
> >
> Startup of the panel applets. They were OK once started, but
> initially...
well ithas several reasons really .... we have a few X apps starting at
once, I haven't yet figured out a way to at least partly order them
so that we wait till one starts up before starting another ... well
I dunno ..
the other thing is mico which is inherently slow ...
another problem is just that tehre are several processes started ...
this should be partly cured with multiple applet processes which
should be comming soon ... then one process will handle several
applets and even different applet types ...
George
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:31:35 +1000
From: Matthew Hawkins <matt@mail.goldweb.com.au>
To: gnome-list@gnome.org, wmaker@eosys.com
Subject: Re: recently on the WindowMaker list
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from Miguel de Icaza on Mon, May 11, 1998 at 02:33:45PM -0500
Organisation: Goldweb Internet, Canberra, Australia
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At 02:33PM on Mon, May 11, 1998, Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx> sent:
> > I've asked Miguel and other GNOME developers that I see (well,
> > virtually anyway) just about every day exactly what GNOME wants from
> > the window manager, and got no reply.
>
> I can not remember you asking me this on a daily basis. I do not
> remember this being the case.
Sorry, my bad typing. I meant that I see you just about every day on
IRC, and I have asked you in the past when the GNOME <-> window manager
integration subject was first raised exactly what GNOME needed and you
didn't know. This "I don't know" answer persisted over several months
until I gave up and believed it ;-)
> The best way to make this progress is to join our list and help out in
> the discussion: the wm maintainers are the people who know better this
> business.
I have now subscribed to the gnome-list mailing list, and look forward
to some productive discussion on this issue.
--
Matthew Hawkins <matt@goldweb.com.au> |
WWW: http://www.goldweb.com.au/~matt/ | "Do not taunt happy fun troll."
UID 0 @ Goldweb Internet +61262530059 |
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From jirka@5z.com Thu May 11 23:52:35 2000
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 01:44:49 -0700
From: George <jirka@5z.com>
To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: recently on the WindowMaker list
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In-Reply-To: <19980512193135.D8613@goldweb.com.au>; from Matthew Hawkins on Tue,
May 12, 1998 at 07:31:35PM +1000
> > I can not remember you asking me this on a daily basis. I do not
> > remember this being the case.
>
> Sorry, my bad typing. I meant that I see you just about every day on
> IRC, and I have asked you in the past when the GNOME <-> window manager
> integration subject was first raised exactly what GNOME needed and you
> didn't know. This "I don't know" answer persisted over several months
> until I gave up and believed it ;-)
the thing is we aren't the ones writing the WMs ... so we won't tell you
exactly what you need to do ... I personally like the icewm hints
proposal as we need such hints ... but it's msotly between you wm
authors on how you implement those ... whichever you guys pick will be
the ones gnome uses ... you should ideally all agree on one set of hints
... so that the whole thing isn't a mess ... I think the icewm hints also
take care of some KDE hints as well ...
the other issue is session managment and we are pretty firm in that every
gnome friendly WM should include that ...
George
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From matt@mail.goldweb.com.au
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:59:28 +1000
From: Matthew Hawkins <matt@mail.goldweb.com.au>
To: tromey@cygnus.com
Cc: gnome-list@gnome.org, wmaker@eosys.com
Subject: Re: recently on the WindowMaker list
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At 04:57PM on Mon, May 11, 1998, Tom Tromey <tromey@cygnus.com> sent:
> Miguel> I can not remember you asking me this on a daily basis. I do
> Miguel> not remember this being the case.
> I don't remember ever seeing any message about making WindowMaker work
> with Gnome. Whatever.
I've asked it in the past on the WindowMaker mailing list (on more than
one occasion), I've asked Miguel and other GNOME developers on IRC and
in private mail, I persisted and made an annoying fly out of myself
since at least september last year until around Jan-Feb when I gave up
hope of ever getting a reply that had progressed beyond the three magic
words of ignorance.
However, now it appears people are actually interested in taking this
beyond the ignorance stage and into the practical one.
> I do know one thing that is required: a Gnome window manager should be
> a client of the session manager, using the X Session Management
> Protocol. The docs for this protocol are available on ftp.x.org.
WindowMaker attempts to be a session manager itself, although I'm not
fully aware of to what extent it takes this role. Therefore I'm not
sure how this would fit into your model.
> I'm also happy to answer any questions wm implementors might have
> about the protocol or its use. I'm interested in getting as many wms
> as possible to do this correctly.
One thing I'd like WindowMaker itself to do is the GNOME-compatible
drag & drop. It would be possible then for example to drag a file out
of gmc and onto a docked appicon and have that application launch like
it currently does with OffiX-compatible DnD apps.
Something I'd like to see in the GNOME panel is the ability to position
it on any part of the screen edge, not just at the far extremities.
At the moment you're pretty restricted where you can place the panel
while running WindowMaker as wmaker has the dock down one screen edge
and appicons and mini-icons on the bottom. For me personally it rules
out the bottom and right-hand side for the above reasons, and it rules
out the top as I have the application-formerly-known-as-fiend in a
horizontal bar from the top-left corner. Which leaves the left-hand-side
for the panel, and I _hate_ vertical panels! ;-)
Right now I'm making do by leaving it at the bottom and sliding it in
to the right-hand-side with the button thingy, then extending it when
I want it. But it'd be nice to be able to position it 64 pixels up so
I can leave it extended and it won't get in the way of any icons or the
future Shelf clone.
--
Matthew Hawkins <matt@goldweb.com.au> |
WWW: http://www.goldweb.com.au/~matt/ | "Do not taunt happy fun troll."
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 02:24:03 -0700
From: George <jirka@5z.com>
To: GNOME Malinglist <gnome-list@gnome.org>
Subject: Re: recently on the WindowMaker list (new hint needed)
References: <199805111933.OAA00244@athena.nuclecu.unam.mx>
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from Matthew Hawkins on Tue, May 12, 1998 at 07:59:28PM +1000
> Something I'd like to see in the GNOME panel is the ability to position
> it on any part of the screen edge, not just at the far extremities.
> At the moment you're pretty restricted where you can place the panel
> while running WindowMaker as wmaker has the dock down one screen edge
> and appicons and mini-icons on the bottom. For me personally it rules
> out the bottom and right-hand side for the above reasons, and it rules
> out the top as I have the application-formerly-known-as-fiend in a
> horizontal bar from the top-left corner. Which leaves the left-hand-side
> for the panel, and I _hate_ vertical panels! ;-)
> Right now I'm making do by leaving it at the bottom and sliding it in
> to the right-hand-side with the button thingy, then extending it when
> I want it. But it'd be nice to be able to position it 64 pixels up so
> I can leave it extended and it won't get in the way of any icons or the
> future Shelf clone.
one requirement to that is to first implement sane animation stuff which
is most likely to be up next (at this rate I'll never get to hacking on
orbit:)
the other thing is that how would the panel know how wide it should do
itself ... one idea is to get a hint from the root window with the
size appropriate to the side of the screen it's snapped to ...
another solution involves a little change to window maker itself ... if
it in itself could avoid the panel (given the apnel will set some sort
of hint special to a panel)
George
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From edgehp+dale@together.net
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:52:11 +0000
From: Dale Pontius <NeOdSgPeAhMp@together.net>
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Subject: Re: First impressions - USER report
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Tom Tromey wrote:
>
> Mark Galassi's documentation covers this.
> The short answer: eventually "gnome-session" will do this.
>
Where is this? The READMEs in /usr/doc/gnome-* aren't terribly
informative. I've started browsing through the Help Browser,
but I haven't gotten far.
>
> Use B3 on the mouse to bring up a menu for any panel applet. I found
> this intuitive. Why didn't you?
>
As an OS/2 user, it should for me, too. But nothing else on Linux has
worked that way, so I didn't expect. I just tried it on the panel and
on Gnome mines, and it didn't work either place.
> The panel automatically saves its state. You shouldn't have to do
> anything.
>
Not for me. The panel always starts with one foot on the left and the
calendar. This past time there's a picture of a folder to the right
of it, but it doesn't start gmc, just a smaller menu.
Dale Pontius
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<35577F47.63A40482@together.net> <m13eegctec.fsf@creche.cygnus.com>
<3558EEBB.7C49AFE3@together.net>
X-Zippy: ONE: I will donate my entire ``BABY HUEY'' comic book collection
to the downtown PLASMA CENTER..
TWO: I won't START a BAND called ``KHADAFY & THE HIT SQUAD''..
THREE: I won't ever TUMBLE DRY my FOX TERRIER again!!
X-Attribution: Tom
BCC:
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From: Tom Tromey <tromey@cygnus.com>
Date: 14 May 1998 16:13:58 -0600
In-Reply-To: Dale Pontius's message of Wed, 13 May 1998 00:52:11 +0000
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>> Use B3 on the mouse to bring up a menu for any panel applet. I
>> found this intuitive. Why didn't you?
Dale> As an OS/2 user, it should for me, too. But nothing else on
Dale> Linux has worked that way, so I didn't expect. I just tried it
Dale> on the panel and on Gnome mines, and it didn't work either
Dale> place.
Yeah. Actually, netscape has B3 do something over links. So it isn't
entirely unfamiliar even on Linux.
If you can suggest something clearer, I'm all ears.
Ultimately, though, I think some things are always a matter for
documentation and training. No program is really "intuitive" in an
absolute sense. I remember being completely bewildered the first time
I sat down at a Mac (I had never seen a mouse before -- this was a
long time ago). But a friend gave me a 10 minute "Intro to the Mac"
talk. What he taught me is basically everything you'd ever need to
know to operate a Mac.
This is what we should aim for. Probably the idea that "there is
often a menu on B3" should just be part of the intro.
>> The panel automatically saves its state. You shouldn't have to do
>> anything.
Dale> Not for me. The panel always starts with one foot on the left
Dale> and the calendar. This past time there's a picture of a folder
Dale> to the right of it, but it doesn't start gmc, just a smaller
Dale> menu.
Interesting. I wonder why it works for me and not for you.
Perhaps the panel saves its state only when you exit it. How do you
exit? I choose logout from the menu. Maybe if you exit by just
shutting down X, it will fail? This is pure speculation.
Try playing with it a bit. You'll know when it works because it will
make the file ~/.gnome/panel. This file holds the state.
Tom