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Subject: Proposal for a new project
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From: Espen S Johnsen <espejohn@sn.no>
Date: 13 May 1997 19:42:55 +0200
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Recently there has been a lot of discussion about KDE/Qt and the GPL
on comp.os.linux.development.apps. I won't say anything about that,
but there is two reasons why I would never use or contribute to KDE:
it is C++ only and uses a proprietary GUI toolkit (Qt).
Now that a very nice free GUI toolkit exists (you know which), I think
the time is right for a new project: The General Desktop Environment,
GDE for short. Of course we should try to reuse as much code as
possible from existing programs, and maybe from KDE. I have also read
some rumours about Red Hat rewriting their tools to use GTK. If this
is true, we could try to convince them to support GDE. In any case, I
know a lot of cool programs will be written with GTK as the toolkit.
If we start now, we may even catch up with the KDE project before they
release their first official (non-beta) version. One program which will
be necessary is as small and fast documentation browser for HTML 2.0,
info and man pages.
--
Espen
From federico@nuclecu.unam.mx
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:09:50 -0500
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From: Federico Mena <federico@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: gtk-list@redhat.com
In-reply-to: <x7vi4nw9nk.fsf@sn.no> (message from Espen S Johnsen on 13 May
1997 19:42:55 +0200)
Subject: Re: [gtk-list] Proposal for a new project
Reply-to: federico@nuclecu.unam.mx
> Now that a very nice free GUI toolkit exists (you know which), I
> think the time is right for a new project: The General Desktop
> Environment, GDE for short.
I think starting yet another desktop project is a complete waste of
time. There are just too many of them.
What I would do is port KDE over to Gtk as quickly as possible, plain
and beautiful C only. Then I would show that work to the KDE people.
> If we start now, we may even catch up with the KDE project before
> they release their first official (non-beta) version. One program
> which will be necessary is as small and fast documentation browser
> for HTML 2.0, info and man pages.
I think you can use a lot of code from the existing KDE widgets.
If someone is going to do this, I think it should be as fast as
possible. KDE/Qt/C++ is getting big and the code is settling down, so
the sooner a Gtk version is available, the better.
Quartic
From espejohn@sn.no
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To: federico@nuclecu.unam.mx
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Subject: Re: [gtk-list] Re: Proposal for a new project
References: <199705131809.NAA17589@sphinx.nuclecu.unam.mx>
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From: Espen S Johnsen <espejohn@sn.no>
Date: 13 May 1997 21:00:11 +0200
In-Reply-To: Federico Mena's message of Tue, 13 May 1997 13:09:50 -0500
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Federico Mena <federico@nuclecu.unam.mx> writes:
> I think starting yet another desktop project is a complete waste of
> time. There are just too many of them.
Yes, this is indeed true, but if it is the only way to get a completly
free desktop envirionment reasonably time, I think it is necessary.
> What I would do is port KDE over to Gtk as quickly as possible, plain
> and beautiful C only. Then I would show that work to the KDE people.
If the KDE people could be persuaded to use Gtk and plain C, that would
be the best solutions. But it is very unlikely, considering the latest
statements i c.o.l.d.a from one of the KDE developers.
--
Espen
From otto@redhat.com
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:03:14 -0400
From: Otto Hammersmith <otto@redhat.com>
To: gtk-list@redhat.com
Subject: Re: [gtk-list] Proposal for a new project
References: <x7vi4nw9nk.fsf@sn.no>
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In-Reply-To: <x7vi4nw9nk.fsf@sn.no>; from Espen S Johnsen
on Tue, May 13, 1997 at 07:42:55PM +0200
On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 07:42:55PM +0200, Espen S Johnsen wrote:
> Recently there has been a lot of discussion about KDE/Qt and the GPL
> on comp.os.linux.development.apps. I won't say anything about that,
> but there is two reasons why I would never use or contribute to KDE:
> it is C++ only and uses a proprietary GUI toolkit (Qt).
>
> Now that a very nice free GUI toolkit exists (you know which), I think
> the time is right for a new project: The General Desktop Environment,
> GDE for short. Of course we should try to reuse as much code as
> possible from existing programs, and maybe from KDE. I have also read
> some rumours about Red Hat rewriting their tools to use GTK. If this
> is true, we could try to convince them to support GDE. In any case, I
> know a lot of cool programs will be written with GTK as the toolkit.
I will say that we at Red Hat are very interested in GTK, and we'd
like to see it become a useful standard for Linux (and hopefully
others) development.
To that end, I can arrange web and ftp space, and possibly more
mailing lists, if need be. I also have some free time I can devote to
administrative-type things.
Now my opinion on the whole thing... :)
I've seen plenty of net-projects die.. either from inactivity or from
flame-wars. I'm especially wary about this one, since a lot of the
success of the Gimp (and equally GTK) has been the small centralized
development team.
I'd say the majority of the usefulness behind such a beast would be to
reduce duplication of effort... certainly not a pipeline for flamewars
over how something should be done or look or whatever.
So, I suppose, I want to know what everyone else on this list thinks
at this point. Comments?
> If we start now, we may even catch up with the KDE project before they
> release their first official (non-beta) version. One program which will
> be necessary is as small and fast documentation browser for HTML 2.0,
> info and man pages.
One thing, you need to be realistic. KDE has been in the works for
about 9 months now... there really isn't much chance for us to catch
up that quickly, not that it's entirely impossible. :)
--
-Otto.
From amundson@cs.umn.edu
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From: Shawn T Amundson <amundson@cs.umn.edu>
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Message-Id: <199705131916.OAA20052@guinness.cs.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: [gtk-list] Re: Proposal for a new project
To: gtk-list@redhat.com
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:16:29 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <19970513150314.59680@redhat.com> from "Otto Hammersmith"
at May 13, 97 03:03:14 pm
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Words Of Otto Hammersmith:
>
>To that end, I can arrange web and ftp space, and possibly more
>mailing lists, if need be. I also have some free time I can devote to
>administrative-type things.
How about a good WWW interface to the gtk-list archives right on
redhat? The discuss archive is not threaded, etc, etc.
I should say now I've secretly been working on a GTK web page
of my own, which is starting to fill out. Take a look:
http://www.cs.umn.edu/~amundson/gtk/
Keep in mind I'm still working on the details.
>
>Now my opinion on the whole thing... :)
>
>I've seen plenty of net-projects die.. either from inactivity or from
>flame-wars. I'm especially wary about this one, since a lot of the
>success of the Gimp (and equally GTK) has been the small centralized
>development team.
>
>I'd say the majority of the usefulness behind such a beast would be to
>reduce duplication of effort... certainly not a pipeline for flamewars
>over how something should be done or look or whatever.
>
>So, I suppose, I want to know what everyone else on this list thinks
>at this point. Comments?
I'd contribute to such a venture. I think it makes more sence to
make an C++ interface to GTK that is somewhat similar (but all it's
own) to Qt to make porting and convincing people easier. But I'm
not much of a C++ programmer (or C for that matter).
--
Shawn T. Amundson University of Minnesota
Systems Administration Computer Science System Staff
amundson@cs.umn.edu http://www.cs.umn.edu/~amundson/
Feel "free" to join the Anti-Windoze movement. Try Linux.
From sopwith@redhat.com
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:33:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Elliot Lee <sopwith@redhat.com>
To: gtk-list@redhat.com
Subject: Re: [gtk-list] Re: Proposal for a new project
In-Reply-To: <199705131916.OAA20052@guinness.cs.umn.edu>
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On Tue, 13 May 1997, Shawn T Amundson wrote:
> How about a good WWW interface to the gtk-list archives right on
> redhat? The discuss archive is not threaded, etc, etc.
I'm setting it up right now. The URL will be
http://www.redhat.com/linux-info/gtk/gtk-list/
-- Elliot http://www.redhat.com/
May all your PUSHes be POPped.
From otto@redhat.com
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:04:08 -0400
From: Otto Hammersmith <otto@redhat.com>
To: gtk-list@redhat.com
Subject: Re: [gtk-list] Re: Proposal for a new project
References: <19970513150314.59680@redhat.com>
<199705131916.OAA20052@guinness.cs.umn.edu>
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from Shawn T Amundson on Tue, May 13, 1997 at 02:16:29PM -0500
On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 02:16:29PM -0500, Shawn T Amundson wrote:
> Words Of Otto Hammersmith:
> >
> >To that end, I can arrange web and ftp space, and possibly more
> >mailing lists, if need be. I also have some free time I can devote to
> >administrative-type things.
>
> How about a good WWW interface to the gtk-list archives right on
> redhat? The discuss archive is not threaded, etc, etc.
:)
Happy now?
Elliot wasn't here the last time someone asked, so I couldn't just
walk over and ask him. It's all just a matter of timing.
> I should say now I've secretly been working on a GTK web page
> of my own, which is starting to fill out. Take a look:
>
> http://www.cs.umn.edu/~amundson/gtk/
>
> Keep in mind I'm still working on the details.
Very cool.
I'd love to see a comprehensive widget reference.. just two lines on
what the widget does, the "public" functions and maybe the structs
involved. ctags and less helps a lot but it's an awful lot of typing
just to look up one thing. :)
> >Now my opinion on the whole thing... :)
> >
> >I've seen plenty of net-projects die.. either from inactivity or from
> >flame-wars. I'm especially wary about this one, since a lot of the
> >success of the Gimp (and equally GTK) has been the small centralized
> >development team.
> >
> >I'd say the majority of the usefulness behind such a beast would be to
> >reduce duplication of effort... certainly not a pipeline for flamewars
> >over how something should be done or look or whatever.
> >
> >So, I suppose, I want to know what everyone else on this list thinks
> >at this point. Comments?
>
> I'd contribute to such a venture. I think it makes more sence to
> make an C++ interface to GTK that is somewhat similar (but all it's
> own) to Qt to make porting and convincing people easier. But I'm
> not much of a C++ programmer (or C for that matter).
I think a C++ interface is a good idea, and it certainly wouldn't hurt
to make it Qt compatible... it seems GTK would map to a Qt-like C++
interface quite well.
That said, decent Python and Perl interfaces are just as important as
a good C++ interface...
--
-Otto.
From amundson@cs.umn.edu
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From: Shawn T Amundson <amundson@cs.umn.edu>
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Message-Id: <199705132020.PAA20227@guinness.cs.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: [gtk-list] Re: Proposal for a new project
To: gtk-list@redhat.com
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:20:28 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <19970513160408.20568@redhat.com> from "Otto Hammersmith"
at May 13, 97 04:04:08 pm
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Words Of Otto Hammersmith:
>
>On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 02:16:29PM -0500, Shawn T Amundson wrote:
>> Words Of Otto Hammersmith:
>> >
>> >To that end, I can arrange web and ftp space, and possibly more
>> >mailing lists, if need be. I also have some free time I can devote to
>> >administrative-type things.
>>
>> How about a good WWW interface to the gtk-list archives right on
>> redhat? The discuss archive is not threaded, etc, etc.
>
>:)
>
>Happy now?
>
Yes! I had it linked in before it existed. ;-) I spent a fair amount
of time trying to figure out how to work with the mail interface to the
archive just so I could put up where the discuss stuff was.
>I'd love to see a comprehensive widget reference.. just two lines on
>what the widget does, the "public" functions and maybe the structs
>involved. ctags and less helps a lot but it's an awful lot of typing
>just to look up one thing. :)
Wouldn't that be duplicating Peter's reference? I have it under
"official documentation", but perhaps I'll change it to "official
reference" if that would be more consistant with what people would
be looking for.
--
Shawn T. Amundson University of Minnesota
Systems Administration Computer Science System Staff
amundson@cs.umn.edu http://www.cs.umn.edu/~amundson/
"My daydream screams bitter 'til the end" -- Smashing Pumpkins
From otto@redhat.com
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:27:32 -0400
From: Otto Hammersmith <otto@redhat.com>
To: gtk-list@redhat.com
Subject: Re: [gtk-list] Re: Proposal for a new project
References: <19970513160408.20568@redhat.com>
<199705132020.PAA20227@guinness.cs.umn.edu>
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from Shawn T Amundson on Tue, May 13, 1997 at 03:20:28PM -0500
On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 03:20:28PM -0500, Shawn T Amundson wrote:
> Words Of Otto Hammersmith:
> >
> >Happy now?
> >
>
> Yes! I had it linked in before it existed. ;-) I spent a fair amount
> of time trying to figure out how to work with the mail interface to the
> archive just so I could put up where the discuss stuff was.
I'm glad. :)
> >I'd love to see a comprehensive widget reference.. just two lines on
> >what the widget does, the "public" functions and maybe the structs
> >involved. ctags and less helps a lot but it's an awful lot of typing
> >just to look up one thing. :)
>
> Wouldn't that be duplicating Peter's reference? I have it under
> "official documentation", but perhaps I'll change it to "official
> reference" if that would be more consistant with what people would
> be looking for.
I thought I had a sentence in there about Peter's stuff... but I guess
I killed it without thinking.
Of course, it'd be based on Peter's reference.. just maybe some link
massaging. One think I will say for Qt is that their documentation
generation tool (which they don't release) is very very nice.
Hyperlinked source might be nice, too... who had that for the Gimp?
All I remeber is that it was big... but at this point, I don't think
Donnie will complain -too- much. >;)
--
-Otto.
From aklikins@eos.ncsu.edu
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From: "Adrian Karstan Likins" <aklikins@eos.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <9705131650.ZM27942@eos.ncsu.edu>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:50:41 -0400
In-Reply-To: Otto Hammersmith <otto@redhat.com>
"[gtk-list] Re: Proposal for a new project" (May 13, 4:27pm)
References: <19970513160408.20568@redhat.com>
<199705132020.PAA20227@guinness.cs.umn.edu>
<19970513162732.25816@redhat.com>
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To: gtk-list@redhat.com
Subject: Re: [gtk-list] Re: Proposal for a new project
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On May 13, 4:27pm, Otto Hammersmith wrote:
> Hyperlinked source might be nice, too... who had that for the Gimp?
> All I remeber is that it was big... but at this point, I don't think
> Donnie will complain -too- much. >;)
>
> --
That was me. It was big. 21 megs for all the code. The hyperlinked
source was generated with a script/program called Global. This can be found at:
http://wafu.netgate.net/tama/unix/indexe.html
Note: there is a similar(maybe better) version of the same idea at:
http://sunsite.unc.edu/linux-source/
The author doesnt have the software to download at the moment, but he does make
a nice thank you to the gimp at the bottom, so maybe he could be persuaded to
let gtk try it out. :)
Adrian
--
********************************************************************************
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Adrian Likins
aklikins@eos.ncsu.edu
http://www4.ncsu.edu/eos/users/a/aklikins/pub/adrian.html
From amundson@cs.umn.edu
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From: Shawn T Amundson <amundson@cs.umn.edu>
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Message-Id: <199705132231.RAA01595@guinness.cs.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: [gtk-list] Re: Proposal for a new project
To: gtk-list@redhat.com
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:31:03 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <9705131650.ZM27942@eos.ncsu.edu> from "Adrian Karstan Likins"
at May 13, 97 04:50:41 pm
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Words Of Adrian Karstan Likins:
> That was me. It was big. 21 megs for all the code. The hyperlinked
>source was generated with a script/program called Global. This can be found at:
>
>
> http://wafu.netgate.net/tama/unix/indexe.html
This one looked good to me. Thanks for the pointer.
GTK+ source tree from 0.99.9 can now be found at
http://www.cs.umn.edu/~amundson/gtk/HTML/. I don't know if
I'm convinced this is useful yet, but it is kind of cool.
A question I have:
Any recommendations about how to keep the FAQ easy to maintain?
What tools, format, etc? Please e-mail me directly and not to
the list, as to make room for more interesting conversation.
Also, if one of the main GTK authors could stand some stupid
and uninformed questions, then let me know and I'll ask them,
get your quote, and put it in the FAQ.
--
Shawn T. Amundson University of Minnesota
Systems Administration Computer Science System Staff
amundson@cs.umn.edu http://www.cs.umn.edu/~amundson/
If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people?
From szi@lilly.ping.de
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:23:59 +0200
From: Sascha Ziemann <szi@aibon.ping.de>
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Espen S Johnsen wrote:
>
> Recently there has been a lot of discussion about KDE/Qt and the GPL
> on comp.os.linux.development.apps. I won't say anything about that,
> but there is two reasons why I would never use or contribute to KDE:
> it is C++ only and uses a proprietary GUI toolkit (Qt).
>
> Now that a very nice free GUI toolkit exists (you know which), I think
> the time is right for a new project: The General Desktop Environment,
> GDE for short. Of course we should try to reuse as much code as
> possible from existing programs, and maybe from KDE. I have also read
> some rumours about Red Hat rewriting their tools to use GTK. If this
> is true, we could try to convince them to support GDE. In any case, I
> know a lot of cool programs will be written with GTK as the toolkit.
Before such big projects are started it is much more important to
complete the amount of widgets GTK provides! It is absolutely useless to
start a filesystem browser for example without a treeview. There are
also other things missing: a Table like a combinition of the Windows
Grid and Listview. Perhaps animations and a icon listview. Another
important part is imho a terminal window at least a read only one.
-- bis später...
- Sascha ---<~>=( http://www.ping.de/sites/aibon/ )=<~>---
() Free speech online
/\ http://www.eff.org/BlueRibbon/bluehtml.html
From adam@uunet.pipex.com
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:57:27 GMT
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From: "Adam D. Moss" <adam@uunet.pipex.com>
To: gtk-list@redhat.com
Subject: [gtk-list] Proposal for a new project
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&1_gx>0owf/#C[WrC5P$~*br|};PF_?7Ge*5fC3o-6k!>h~}Vw)rvxyAt3z+5*h*4LvXm=vcp^*)G%
S}6&.lN]'xDAXxf%<B!z(\Y}'8Wd2{p,[4`j9oFFQYYP
Espen S. Johnsen writes:
> If we start now, we may even catch up with the KDE project before they
> release their first official (non-beta) version.
Don't fight KDE, please - if you're about to re-invent the wheel then
maybe you could re-implement Qt based on GTK.
Qt is a whole application/object framework of which the user interface
is only the tip of the iceberg; hoping to duplicate its functionality
AND the functionality of the KDE suite itself in time to 'catch up' is
a noble ideal but near-impossible in practice and not necessarily the
most straightforward way to solve KDE's problem.
Even some of the KDE developers are uneasy about Qt's licensing, but
everyone is now committed; they may embrace a Qt-like GTK-based
library, and would almost certainly love a Qt-compatible GTK-based
library.
But either way there's a lot of work there.
--Adam